Interview: Gokor Chivichyan - 2/11/2004
by Derek Callahan

Gokor Chivichyan is an expert trainer with immeasurable experience. He has trained many of the UFC, Extreme, Pancrase and other mixed martial arts champion fighters. Gokor personally teaches each of his 400 students as well as offering private classes and seminars around the world. Not only is Gokor's school the #1 ranked sambo, judo and grappling studio in the world, but students of the Hayastan system also participate in BJJ and MMA tournaments, frequently returning home victorious.


Inside Fighting: Well first off Gokor Im interested in your martial art beginnings, what attracted you to them and where it went from there.
Gokor Chivichyan: Well I begin when I was five, in Armenia. Armenia a part of the former Soviet Union and I started, basically wrestling and sambo because they dont have any other except boxing or something like that, but the wrestling and sambo were grappling, and then judo. I took judo too [beginning in] 1973.

IF: How do you think your childhood contributed to you passion for martial arts?
GC: I was a very aggressive child; all my friends were scared of me. I hurt them and stuff like that. Most of my friends were older than me, like three, four years and for a kid five, six years old making them, nine years old cry, but I was a quiet kid, never harm anybody. I dont have to harm, in school I would study very well and I never gave a problem to my teachers or anybody like that. I was just a problem when the fight came up, then I was very dynamic. When I was a kid.

IF: Youve been given the nickname the man of 1,000 Holds, so obviously youre pretty adept on the mat, but what kind of striking have you trained?
GC: I did boxing myself for approximately five, maybe six years. When I came to America I have a friend, hes a Thai boxer world champion. I train with him, I teach him grappling and he teaches me a little bit of what the Thai people do, but years and years have passed. My striking is pretty good, Im not concerned as a striking instructor, but for myself as a fighter I can mix my style how to strike and grapple at the same time and also, I develop judo with no gi, which nobody does that. You see my students; they do a lot of judo throws without the gi. A lot of judo people, they search the gi to do something but not my students. My students, they know what theyre doing.

IF: What are some advantages you see of training judo without a gi?
GC: Every sport you train, you have advantage. Its basically judo. I did many years in jiu-jitsu also I did Thai boxing. When I came to the United States, I added to what I did before, basically I added Thai boxing and jiu-jitsu. In the meantime, I competed. My competition gave me a lot of experience on what to do and which things work. Some of the judo techniques were not working and some of the jiu-jitsu techniques were not working. In my experience I look for all the working techniques and then I was not satisfied because for me, I needed a little bit more of what I had and then I met Judo Gene [Lebell]. Gene gave me lots of techniques Id never seen before. And then I started to develop my own techniques because of my own experience. After that I started doing a lot of new things that people never knew. We developed it together, Gene and myself. All the combinations. One technique, Ill pick it up, and then I make a pin combination out of it. Many years ago when I was fighting I was looking for all the kinds of different combinations so I could surprise my opponent. The past years my age comes up. Im 40 today.

IF: Really? Well happy birthday!
GC: (laughs) No when I say today, not a birthday just 40 years old. Anyway, when you get older and things are getting more serious, you watch your students mistakes and they even get more serious. All the techniques come in handy. Whatever doesnt work I basically forget about it. We only use working techniques. Some people come and say, We want to show you something, and were very humble to watch what other people do. We dont take things that dont work for us.

IF: Only use whats effective. Tell me a bit about your transition from being a competitor to teaching and training fighters?
GC: Well you know becoming a trainer is harder than being a competitor yourself. When I was fighting I was never as nervous as I am today because I knew in my mind what I was doing. Now, it doesnt matter how well you teach your students, your students still can make a mistake [and] you can still see it. In your students mistake it makes me more nervous because any minute he can do a big mistake and lose the match. Its not a religious thing for me that my students have to win all the time. We understand that everybody loses and wins. Of course I would be so happy to see my students win all the time but were not able to have a big mouth and go anywhere saying, Look my students never learn, we are the best, and things like that. I never liked to do thatI hate people like that. We all know we want our students to win. My concerns are he wins the match, he doesnt get hurt, and thats the most important thing for me. Of course we all want our students to be champions. As a competitor and teacher, for me becoming a teacher is ten times harder.

IF: I understand that when you came to the United States you competed in no-holds-barred events in the 1980s. I was under the impression that the UFC was the first, where were you able to fight?
GC: No, the UFC was not at that time. Even the Gracie name was not [big] at the time when I was fighting. I remember fighting many Brazilian guys but I didnt know who I was fighting with. When I was fighting, it was not popular like today. I wish it was popular like today I would be a millionaire. Everything thats not allowed in the United States (its like the movies), they brought it underground. A few things happened like the police came up and things like that. It was only serious when we went to Japan and competed in SHOOTO over there and you see a lot of people sitting and watching. It looked more like a tournament, but whenever I fought it looked like you got an enemy in the back of your house and beat the hell out of him. In my time a lot of fights go without a referee and when I remember now, its a little crazy. Maybe I would never let my students do things like that. But I did it because I was a kid and I didnt care. I loved to do it. It was in my blood. For those types of things I went to Canada most of the time, Japan and a few times in Mexico City when I was a kid. In the United States almost every other week there was a place where you could fight and bet money and if you win, double money. But never like today, I wish I was young today.

IF: Well if you think about it there are still a lot of guys competing these days your age or even much older than you.
GC: Thats very true. The problem with me is when the UFC came up, I taught 90% of the fighters. All the best fighters you see today, 90% of them I taught. They were at my school. The Shamrock family, Randy Coutures been to my school. I can name any of the best guys you know today. Dan Severn was at my place before he was fighting with Shamrock. Everybody came up because most of the people know I have experience from far away and I fought a lot of places. I never lost any fight, and everybody started coming. I was thinking about entering the UFC but after that a lot of people started training with me and I felt like if I go fight there I was going to fight the people Im teaching. At the same time I looked at it money-wise. I was making more money than anyone else fighting there just teaching them. I decided I would stay teaching, make more money and that would be better for me. This way you dont get hurt, you dont fight. I already did what I had to do. But, I was looking for an opportunity to compete in something else at the time. I ended up teaching and then doing a lot of movies. I did movies all the time. My job was very hectic I was in the jewelry business it was very busy. I didnt feel like I needed money, it was no problem for me. In 1997 I fought with the big Japanese guy. This guy beat; I think Shamrock and a couple Brazilians. He was a very strong guy. He was supposed to fight with some of the guys in Brazil and the guy didnt show up. They called me and said, Gokor do you want to fight? I said, I am a completely retired guy, just teaching. But theres good money there, like $75,000. Do you want to do it? Well, I need the money to a point and Gene made his Grappling World Federation type thing and he wanted to advertise it. I say, you know what? I think this is a good time, let me do it one more time. Its good money, I need that money.

Most of the guys on the Internet, they talk. You see bad and good. Oh Gokor was good before I dont think hed last one second with any strong guys today. So let me go and prove that I can do something better. So I fought this guy and beat him in 51 seconds. He beat a lot of good guys. After that everybody started talking differently. Like I say, doing a lot of seminars all over the world and working hard. I dont even see my children sometimes. Go and start training hard to fight for what? What are they going to give to me? Its a different thing, if theyre going to give me two million, three million dollars, then I would do it. It doesnt matter my age. I can still go do it. But if youre making money and youre happy already, and I have enough name, thats good enough for me. More name you get, more trouble you got. The name I have is enough for me. I make my money, and if I dont focus on my students more, whose going to focus on them? Nobody. This is the reason Im thinking maybe Im old, buy you never know. If someone comes up with a lot of money Ill definitely do it, doesnt matter the age.

IF: Id like to talk a bit a bout a fight between you and Rickson Gracie that almost panned out but never fully did.
GC: They make a name out of it, a few people walk in my school with a limo and everything, dressed pretty good. They asked me if I wanted to fight with Rickson Gracie. I asked them, Why do I have to fight him, what happened? They said, We know how good you are and we know how Rickson Gracie is, and we want to know whose going to win. Well I say, thats a good question I would love to know too because Rickson is a tough guy. I dont want to say Im a tough guy or not, but I would love to, only if theres good money. They say, One million dollars, good enough? I say, Perfect, wheres the contract? Well they give me a contract and I phoned them and I say, were going to give Rickson the contract and then we come back to you and let you know when and what and things like that. So I wait almost a year, nothing comes up. This guy calls me back again and says, Rickson doesnt want to do it. I say, Why doesnt he want to do it? Me and Gokor, we are friends. And I said listen, Tell him I appreciate the friendship but for one million dollars we can go fight and still be friends. And they said, well we are same stylists, he doesnt want to fight with someone whos the same stylist. I say, well thats a completely different story, I dont know. I know hes a tough guy. They call me a few days later: after we talk about this he said that one million dollars is not enough, he needs more. I said, Okay thats your department. A month later they made it two million dollars. Do you think youd do it? I said, Of course Id do it. Well until today I am waiting for somebody to call me and they say Rickson doesnt want to do it. Im not really thinking why he doesnt want to do it, but I think I can use the two million dollars. Im in a yes or no position. I would love to do it. If anytime its happening, I need a deposit and also six months because I have to train. Im not going to fight without getting myself ready. Im training every day but Im not training for tournament. My tournament training is completely different.

IF: Oh of course. When was all this happening?
GC: Were talking about altogether, a year and a half. Machado brothers were calling me saying, Gokor we hear youre going to fight with Rickson, I said, Listen. Ive never said anything myself, some people come up and ask me if I want to do it for the million dollars, and I say, Yes, Ill do it. And thats it, thats all the things that happened.

IF: Well its certainly an interesting story. Talking now about your unique partnership with Judo Gene LeBell, what you have seems to be a winning combination, which is of course exhibited through your MMA fighters, but what do you see as the formula as to why you two work so well together?
GC: Well this is the formula; were really doing real mixed martial arts. Were doing all the best arts and bring it together. Like Karo Parisyan, my student who competed in UFC, people were talking about, judo, judo, judo. Hes a good judo player theres no doubt about it, theres a lot better judo players but they can do nothing. Basically our system, its mixed martial arts: sambo, judo, wrestling, jiu-jitsu, and were doing a lot of boxing and Thai boxing. We mix it up. Like I said, we never choose any techniques that never work. Even if its fancy, it looks good - beautiful for a dance, but not for fighting. We develop lots of different types of techniques and combinations that people dont know. I pick up a lot of leg locks from sambo, and then I develop a lot of my own combinations and then I look at all the people trying to do leg locks, other people standing, they screw up, they can do nothing. Our techniques are completely against people stand up, all kinds of things. We completely do techniques that really, really work for us.

IF: Sounds like a lot of teamwork.
GC: We do that and most of the champions come and train with us and they get excited so much because they never see what were doing. Even the jiu-jitsu guys come up and train with us and this is what theyre telling me. I have a lot of jiu-jitsu friends and theyre telling me, Gokor, you guys know what were doing, you completely know what were doing [but] we dont know what the hell you guys are doing. Youre attacking my hand and finishing my leg, and attacking my leg and finishing my hand. Youre attacking my neck and you do something else. Basically, we dont understand what you are doing and its very hard to fight with you guys because your standup is good, your punching and striking is good, kicking, and your ground is fantastic because you guys are completely fighting a different stylewe never see it. And thats exactly what were doing; were trying to develop something. All the people are doing grappling but not too many people know how many hundreds of combinations you can do from every position.

IF: Would you say that having so many techniques that people dont know stems from your coming from Armenia, a place where little if any top guys today have trained and or fought?
GC: Not only that, a lot of it is Genes development, my development, years and years of experience. This is already 35 years Im doing this, and some fighters are not even 35 years old. I was the master of things when some of the fighters were born, but Im always humble, Im always quiet. I never put down anybody. Be a martial artist, be a good martial artist, but being a good person is more important for me. I always tell my students, be a better person than a martial artist, and today if youre a champion, be very humble and show what a champion looks like to the other generation coming up. Dont have attitude, dont have a big mouth, nothing like that. Just be nice to anybody. Show them how tough you are when you are on the mat or in the ring. Basically this is our strategy. Train hard; dont get lazy. If you want to do something, do it or not do it. There is no 50% there is no 99%, its 0 or 100. Thats the way I was and thats the way I teach my students.

IF: That seems to be a very effective theory. Talking now about two of your more high profile students, Karo of course, and Manvel
GC: Ive got a lot of fighters. Harut Terzian, the big dude in Las Vegas. Hes won most every fight hes in and hes one of the strongest guys in my school. Basically hes teaching Tito [Ortiz] and Ricco [Rodriguez] now. He just dont have a brain, thats all. Everything else is good, his body, his techniques hes like a computer. Hes strong, he beat all the champions today, hes played with them. Even the champions today come up and say, Gokor, this guy is awesome. We are the champions and he plays like a kitten. But he doesnt have no brain, thats the problem. I give him everything except brains.

IF: Right, does he compete at all?
GC: A lot, yeah. He competed a lot before. He wins most of everything. He beat everybody. He never fight in the UFC, theyre begging me now to have Harut there. They said, Gokor, he can go straight to the championship. I talked to Harut and it looks like I change his mind he says, Okay Ill do it. Then they call me for April 2nd and I say, Harut do you want to do April 2nd? No I have to train harder, I have to be ready. Well, I dont know if hes really going to do it or not because I never understand that kid. One day we wake up with yes, another day we wake up with no. So I dont know.

IF: Its like you said about giving 100% or 0% its just a matter of finding which.
GC: Exactly, so thats why I dont want to push anybody because I really want them 100% ready to go. If theyre not ready then they better not go. Like me as an amateur I fought maybe 3,000 [times] maybe more, but with amateur, ready or not ready I always go, but anything professional I only go if Im 100% ready. Theyre different things, I fought jiu-jitsu, judo, sambo many times, over 3,000 maybe even more. My professional record is like over 400 but its not all no holds barred. I did professional judo, professional fighting, anything where I make money. No holds barred, if Im not lying to you, basically 80, 90 fights or something like that in my career. None of them I lost I just basically own everything. Like I said, it was never popular like today, I wish it was like that.

IF: A lot of the earlier UFCs showcased some really crude guys, and you competed long before that. Were the fighters you fought skilled or more crass?
GC: Some of them very skilledsome of them nothing. I ended up fighting people who I could beat up in two seconds and I ended up fighting with people I feel were tough, they knew everything, but I finished them in less than two minutes anyway. I fought many Brazilian guys, I didnt know what they were doing, what kind of style they were, I just fought them and beat them. I remember a lot of people would say, this is a judo guy, this is a jiu-jitsu guy, I dont even see any hard time I had with those guys, theyd say, they are grapplers, and this and that, Id say, no problem. The time when I was fighting I fought too many people, but I didnt know who they are, what style they are, all I cared about at that time was just go and fight, win, get money and go home.

IF: Thanks for the time.
GC: Thank you my friend.

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